How Affirmative Action Really Works

Even if you can’t remember his name (and who but an Indian could?), you may be familiar with Vijay JoJo Chokal-Ingam’s story as told in his recently self-published Almost Black: The True Story Of How I Got Into Medical School By Pretending To Be Black.

The book is a fascinating personal story, but more important for the light it sheds on the way “affirmative action” works in our universities.

Vijay—who used his authentic middle name, JoJo, “star point guard for my family’s beloved Celtics” on his applications—is the son of Indian immigrants, his mother a highly regarded Boston ob-gyn and his father an architect. His sister is the well-known television star and author Mindy Kaling.

“Honestly,” he writes on his book’s web page linked above,

I am about as black as Gandhi. Once upon a time I was an ethically [and, as it turned out, ethnically] challenged, hard-partying Indian American frat boy enjoying my third year of college. That is until I realized I didn’t have the grades or test scores to get into medical school.

Legitimately….

The only problem? I wasn’t a minority. So I became one…. Vijay, the Indian American frat boy, became JoJo, the African American med school applicant.

Vijay’s 3.1 GPA as an economics major at the University of Chicago was what grade inflation in the 1990s had done to what in the old days would have been a gentleman’s “C.” Although Vijay admits that in his first two years of college he rarely let academic effort intrude upon his prodigious social calendar, he shows that he is also very smart and capable of excellent research when he needs it.

And need it he did when he turned his attention to medical school admission and discovered that a 3.1 GPA and MCAT score of 31 were not sufficient for him to make the cut “as an Asian” (his emphasis). “I was toast,” he realized.

It certainly seemed so, since the acceptance rate of Asian applicants to accredited medical schools with a GPA between 3.00 and 3.19 and an MCAT score of 30-31 was 18.1 percent. (These data are from 2013-2016, but they have not changed substantially from the 1990s.)

But Vijay discovered that the acceptance rate for blacks with his same GPA and MCAT score was 75.5 percent! When he looked in the mirror (see photos here), he saw a virtually black face looking back at him, and thus began  applying to medical schools as a black.

He changed his dress, shaved his head, studied Stanislavskian method acting, and, with the help of a knowing accomplice, joined the Chicago Organization of Black Students. But the only lie on his applications was in the racial box he checked. He did not hide or disguise his privileged background.

It worked, more or less. Vijay was invited for interviews at 11 of the 26 medical schools to which he applied, including several highly ranked ones, such as Yale, Columbia, Penn, Rochester, and Washington University.

The process included one humorous moment when Vijay discovered that his inviting letter from Harvard was signed by Dr. Alvin Poussaint, the father of Alan Poussaint, “a guy who had known both me and my sister for years.” He decided not to follow through with his Harvard application.

When I read Almost Black I did not know how the “comedy” ended, and thus the book read much like an entertaining but serious mystery. Since readers more careful than I, however, will have learned from the book’s subtitle that his quixotic quest did succeed, I will spoil the mystery by noting that Vijay was admitted to one medical school—St. Louis University—which he attended for one year. Missing, however, was any discussion at all of why he lasted only one year.

The book’s story of how affirmative action works in practice will be familiar to many, but Vijay’s anecdotes and experiences make it especially revealing.

All of his target schools had noble policy statements affirming that they do not discriminate on the basis of race. But all of them do to one degree or another—some of them more overtly than you’d imagine. The University of Wisconsin, for example, implied in one of its letters that it (as Vijay writes) “was willing to compromise its state residency requirement for out of state minorities (wink,wink).”

Indeed, Almost Black can be read as a humorously entertaining but at the same time depressing account of how minority medical school admissions actually works. It’s one of the rare accounts that actually names names.

Chapter Two, for example, is alone worth the price of admission. It describes in excruciating detail Vijay’s interview with Dr. Rubens Pamies, then the Director of the Office of Minority Affairs at Case Western Reserve’s medical school. Dr. Pamies saw through Vijay’s racial charade—the only medical school official who acknowledged doing so—and virtually threw him out of the interview.

Nevertheless, to Vijay’s astonishment, Case Western Reserve ultimately placed him on the waiting list for admission. A classmate suggested that the explanation likely was a mutual fear of exposure, since Dr. Pamies could have exposed Vijay to the University of Chicago as engaging in fraud, but only by having it come out how unprofessionally (and perhaps illegally) he had grilled an applicant on where his parents were born and his racial identity, thus making it clear that his affirmative program enforced a rigid racial requirement.

Vijay repeatedly emphasizes that he “wasn’t a social revolutionary” engaged in a crusade to expose affirmative action. He merely wanted to gain admission to medical school.

He also reveals that walking in a black man’s shoes made him more aware than he had been of the discrimination blacks suffer. He received an expensive speeding ticket, for example, from a racist Chicago cop for going 49 miles per hour in a 45 zone, and a security guard at a neighborhood store where he had happily shopped as Vijay for two years threw him to the ground and accused him of shoplifting when he went in as JoJo.

But even if he didn’t begin as “a social revolutionary,” Vijay’s experience turned him into a dedicated foe of the racial discrimination at the core of affirmative action as actually practiced. By the time of his graduation ceremony from Chicago, he told a Chicago TV station, he refused to shake hands with Bill Clinton because “I was protesting against Clinton’s support for affirmative action racism against Asian Americans and whites in admissions.”

One suspects that Vijay may have long been more opposed to affirmative action than his account allows. That suspicion is reinforced by the fact that Almost Black opens with “the eleven year old Indian American boy cool[ing] his heels outside the office of the headmaster of Boston’s Roxbury Latin School,” where he soon learns that he’d been rejected despite his perfect score on the Secondary School Admission Test because, as an admission officer told his mother, “We see a lot of your people around here.”

Vijay’s mother complained to Boston Latin’s legendary headmaster, F. Washington Jarvis, and she was told that “the law gives us the right to…consider race as a factor. We can reject applicants if we feel that their ethnic background does not help us to, shall we say, create a more diverse class.”

After his retirement, Jarvis published With Love and Prayers: A Headmaster Speaks to the Next Generation. “If it is true,” Jarvis wrote, “that a picture is worth a thousand words, it is ten times as true when you are speaking to young teenagers. They are gripped by the story of how real people cope with real situations. They are interested when you share with them the concrete realities of your own life and experience, and they are almost always willing to listen to adults who actually believe in something, who actually stand for something.”

What Jarvis taught one Indian American pre-teen is that promoting “diversity” means excluding people like him, but Vijay did not fully learn that lesson until he began applying to many of America’s top medical schools. His book, Almost Black, is a gripping story, well told, of that revealing journey, documenting how diversity-justified affirmative action excludes as many individuals based on their ancestry as it includes.

Finally, that journey taught Vijay, somewhat to his own surprise, that he was more than a smart, rich playboy. He learned that he actually stands for something—the principle that it is wrong to award burdens or benefits based on race.

  • tommy mc donnell

    the real tragedy of affirmative action for the united states is that it allowed the left to destroyed the merit system.
    the affirmative action laws were a direct response by the democrat party to the passage of the civil rights act. the civil right act made racial discrimination illegal. for decades southern democrats achieved political power by discriminating against blacks. so the democrat party passed laws that then and still today allow them to achieve political power by practicing racial discrimination against whites. two wrongs make a right in liberal thinking.

  • rogerclegg

    Great review! Thanks, Mr. Rosenberg!

  • JWJ

    “Dr. Pamies could have exposed Vijay to the University of Chicago as engaging in fraud”

    In all seriousness what fraud? If a biological male can become a female with a mere declaration, why can’t anyone, and I mean anyone, become a black and/or hispanic applicant?
    Are there legal definitions that I am unaware of?

  • Vee

    Whats funny is that people dont seem to connect that Affirmative Action is a benefit to the tons of burden that African Americans face. It would have been nice if African Americans were judged fairly on merit but the problem was that they were still rejected despite merit based on the color of their skin. And lets be real, because of America stealing land and preventing African Americans from obtaining resources, they are less likely to apply for a certain school because they dont have the passed down money that could afford them a Harvard education. When you are illegally accused of stealing or given a ticket for the color of your skin, these are additional burdens. To the point where you are sometimes not in a position to even apply for an opportunity for Affirmative Action.

    • Vee

      And yes, we know, African Americans are doing way better now. But thats because of laws like these put in place and it still will take generations for things being balanced. Thats crazy, this guy has money and options but because he did not want to study as hard, he made himself another color. I have a friend, she did something similar. I know no black people who can make themselves white to prevent being given a ticket or accused of stealing. And yet people say that privilege does not exist. Seriously?

      • David

        The issue of policing should be dealt with on its own, but cops have to “profile” to find a suspect they’re looking for. They’ll profile on whatever they can observe. And if they’re looking for a violent criminal and (as stats show) a black man is far more likely to be a violent criminal than a white man, well rationally that will be an element of the profiling. If short people were more likely suspects than tall people, they would profile short people.

        The real solution is to fix the lives of ordinary black men, not those “talented tenth” ones currently getting all the praise, so they are more reasonable. Police their neighborhoods, get drugs out, promote business formation — give them a way up by hard work. It will require fixing the broader economy, there’s no other way.

        • Vee

          They already did that in the 70’s and 80’s. It made things worse for our communities. And its a lot of business owners, but not enough money to circulate in those businesses to keep them going. Because the people are not working high paying jobs and cant afford to go to college. But I do think policing should be dealt with on its on. The problem with policing is that police are profiling people but not because its a suspect. They are just randomly searching and jailling people. People are in jail and have not done anything for weeks and months at a time. If you match the suspect, thats different. But cops are harassing community members. They still plant drugs. Think about it, if the area is poverty stricken, who do you think are buying the drugs? Its not the community members. I think the communities need to take more responsibility and understand the power they have in their communities. In the last 5 years, Ive seen more people create their own groups to slowly build the communities up. And then others organizations with big money come and support them. Its really been making a difference.

    • Vee

      Furthermore, white people are not discriminated against historically like african americans. Its just that they give african americans less credit for merit because of all of the other things they experience. So white people and others are judged fairly and still are upset. Its really about Minorities having a consideration they are not given in other parts of life. Like shopping or drving.

      • Anonymous

        “Furthermore, white people are not discriminated against historically like african americans.”

        Italians and the Irish faced discrimination in the US, but their descendants don’t see themselves as victims like unfortunately some blacks do.

        As a female black person, I don’t want to see myself as a victim of something that occurred years before my time since that doesn’t make sense anyway. What does slavery and Jim Crow have to do with me since I was born after those periods? As a matter of fact, I’ve gotten more flak by SJWs who scolded me for not acknowledging my “victimhood” and from other blacks for “acting white” during my K-12 days than from bigots I was warned about. Does that matter to you or not?

        • Vee

          Hi Anonymous. Yes you are right, Italians and Irish faced discrimination but they did not experience Jim Crow or mass lynchings or the destruction of their thriving communities. In fact, Italians and Irish were allowed to be represented as a color (White) and were able to reap the benefits of what came with that color such as loans and jobs. Oh and the right to not be an immigrant but to be and American. And the whole acting white thing is what little black children are taught on television. Because the media only depicted certain stereotypes of African Americans and whites. Whites did have access to better education and more money of course, so yea, they used the word white because that is what was advertised. And yes, it does matter to me. Its not secret that African Americans have a lot of trauma and not only does your body pass it down on a spiritual level and parents pass it down through behavior, your actual body cells and genes remember it. So, its not about being a victim, its just being aware of that fact the sake of seeking help.You have to know where you come from. And I can guarantee you being told you are acting white is not as bad as being discriminated against for being black. Just my personal experience.

          • David

            You’re not entitled to legal compensation or special treatment for psychic injury being carried at a spiritual level from your parents or whatever you’re talking about here. If that’s the “legacy of slavery”, well then just get over it. Just like the rest of us get over things and take the consequences if we don’t.

          • Vee

            David, but we should be entitled to fairness. And why are not we not entitled to that if America is the cause? It would be different if were lynching ourselves and raping ourselves and wrongfully jailing us. Its called justice. This kind of trauma you dont get over. If a rapist took advantage of a loved one, do you get over or fight for justice? See, the constitution and entire legal systems is built on this Western idea of justice, yet we are supposed to forget about this generational chaos imposed and just deal with the consequences. Did you know that this trauma causes PTSD, its clinically proven. Its so much more than the legacy of slavery, think Jim Crow, the war on drugs, think of the reason Affirmative Action was needed. Would you tell a parent to tell their child to just get over rape or being shot? No, you would seek justice. And people dont just get over things, thats why white men have such high suicide rates. African American rates are climbing. But think about that. My point is you cant get over something you are consistently subjected to. Its basically non equal treatment.

          • goldushapple

            You keep talking about non being treated equal and wanting justice yet you can’t even prove that as a whole blacks are where they are due to 1. slavery and 2. Jim Crow laws (and its effects).

            I’m not white and I’ll be brutally honest: No wonder blacks in America can’t move forward. They got a “Vee” mentality. Yea I said it.

          • Vee

            Lol, you clearly know nothing about “Blacks”.

    • Vee

      We have to reset the system so that things can be fair. We all know its problem, but no one is hitting the reset button on the systems that create these burdens. We can all benefit.

      • David

        We reset the system by getting rid of any racial based differences in laws. Look, black people often don’t like white people either. You can’t force someone to like you. But if you’re good and honest, you’ll probably find your level in society, without any race-based thumbs on the scale.

        On the other hand, I can assure you that whites discount qualifications of blacks that were probably earned with the assistance of affirmative action. For example, speaking of Harvard, getting into Harvard doesn’t mean nearly as much if the person is black, because the thresholds are much lower. Rationally this should be taken into account in evaluating the credential later. It’s massively unfair to the black kid who really could have gotten in anyway, but it’s just as unfair to say a poor white kid who was pushed aside for a middle class black with far lesser qualifications.

        • Vee

          Hi David. The thing is, law that addresses race is a direct result from white people with a superiority complex as it relates to other races, including creating laws that affects entire groups of African Americans and others an entire whole. IE, the war on drugs. And lets be honest, it has nothing to do with people disliking each other, if it were that simple, then I doubt we would be having this discussion. Furthermore, it doesnt take attending Harvard for whites to discount qualifications of blacks. Its a historical trend of discrimination and blacks having to overcompensate in some way to satisfy a white person. And the fact that white people assume that they were pushed aside due to Affirmative Action is arrogant and narcissistic at worst. And its no secret that white women reportedly benefit the most from Affirmative Action. Its really not fair when a white person with no qualifications get an opportunity that people of color are often not afforded because they discount the qualifications of people based on their skin color. I really would for the same people who disagree with Affirmative Action to fight just as hard against the discrimination that brought us all here in the first place. Meanwhile, some white people are pissed because a handful of people of color got into college and assumed they were even in the running.

          • David

            Hi Vee,

            A “superiority complex”, or arrogance or narcissism, is a personal thing for which others are not entitled to compensation. If that complex is irrational or at variance with facts, it will just lead to worse decisions and worse results for the one holding it. It really does come down to what people like, because that determines who you hire, who you admit, who you associate with if given the choice.

            If whites overlook better qualified blacks in their associations and hiring, black business owners can then scoop them up. There are plenty of (excessive) incentives for minority and women owned businesses etc. This is how one deals with irrational decision making if one sees it: take advantage of it! Hire those great black employees others are overlooking and start a successful business!

            White women may get most of the slots for sex based affirmative action because there are a lot of white women. Black women get a lot more than black men. Average black men get screwed over and left behind, unable to support families and in prison, out in the ‘hood getting shot … while the “talented tenth” gets special help to get university degrees and prominent jobs and put in position to wail about their plight from what happened over 150 years ago. Trump will refocus from the “talented tenth” of blacks to the “forgotten 9/10” along with all the other forgotten people, which seems fair.

            Don’t pretend to join hands with other “people of color” for this discussion. You know that you are fighting against the hispanics for most race-based affirmative action slots.

            At some point, and we’re well past it, one must conclude that blacks have found their level and their performance is based on their ability, not something that was done to their distant ancestors by a few other people’s distant ancestors (not including mine btw so I owe you absolutely nothing) — which led them to be doing much better than other black people whose ancestors remained in Africa!

            It’s easy to ridicule those who object to affirmative action as just not being good enough. Maybe they are, maybe not, we’ll never know. But it’s more on point to ridicule the many recipients of it who obviously aren’t good enough except for this heavy and persistent thumb on the scale. Quite a few fall into this category. And whoever made the comment about them doing better at “easier colleges” had a good point. Isn’t an engineering degree from a state school, or a HBCU, better than a useless sociology degree from a “white” private university? It’s better for society, that’s for sure.

            People discriminate for all sorts of reasons: overweight, ugly, short, etc. I’d “fight” against those forms of discrimination before spending energy on this protected cause of race-based affirmative action. It’s time for a different group to get special treatment for a while.

          • Vee

            David, I can respect you feel its based on what people like. Although as an African American, I can guarantee you that its not just about like. I have personally experienced it and have seen it. Trust me, many African Americans want to give people the benefit of the doubt, then they address a stereotype and up play a hasty generalization and you know what side of the racism fence they are on. Its a consistent thing that white people do sadly. And if a person is African American plus one of those additional things someone does not like, then that means that they are less likely to give someone a chance. See, thats the problem. People are justifying not giving someone an opportunity based on things that have nothing to do with their qualifications and Affirmative Action prevents them from doing it. This helps people of color and women.
            Black business owners are popping up but not until recently, literally the last 5-10 years, are they actually able to get any kind of money to grow their business. Remember, just 40 years ago, they did redlining. And lets not forget that we have no generational wealth to pass down due to the past. White Americans have an uncle or a cousin who could help them. If they walk into a bank, they were more likely to get a good business loan. They also are more likely to afford a better education. However with technology around,that is slowly but surely changing. Finally, the way that the communities have to broken consistently due to institutional racism has created a lot of poverty stricken communities. Side note, do you know how many men are getting out of prison right now for wrongfully being jailed for years?
            Anywho, starting the business is easy, maintaining it is the not so easy part, as they so only a small percentage thrive. But like I said, that is changing. Thank Goodness.

            As far as Trump, I personally think he is all talk and has even proven so by not doing all the things he planned to do. And if he thinks focusing on the 10th is going to do anything, then that means he has no intel on the real issues in the African American community.

            And I am not pretending to hold hands with other races.We dont have that European scarcity mentality, which creates poverty, that is more of a white thing. They feel like they are fighting for jobs. Yet, they have the best jobs. And lets be honest, its not because they have the credentials at times, its because someone likes them. I support any person who needs help no matter the color, white people included. America can not be its best if at the lowest poverty level, people are treated like crap. IE veterans and poor people.

            I love the “I owe you nothing” statement. It makes me laugh all of the time. It also suggests that people takes things personally. I think it connects to what you may subconsciously feel. What African American ever came up to you and said, you owe me? Ill wait.
            Its just that American thing people like to do to let African Americans know they care nothing about them.
            If it was easy as working hard, then African Americans would have millions over millions. Nothing about surviving in poverty is lazy.
            As far the ancestors who remained in Africa, some places are doing well and some are not. It goes to that whole European and American raping thing they like to do. You know, go and take things and sell it just to make money. Not investing in where they took from.

            I agree on the whole college comment. But all colleges, if not most, have a entry criteria. See that same criteria used to keep African Americans out, now the criteria of Affirmative Action essentially is a criteria that was created out the necessity of fairness in my opinion.

            Another fave comment that I find hilarious, “Different group of people get special treatment for a while.” You are joking right? Hello…White America?
            Wait, let me be clear, who is receiving special treatment? And what different group of people should receive this? You mean special treatment like the War on Drugs, Redlining, being accused for shoplifting when you never have in your life? Assumed you got into a school because of Affirmative Action? Being told to stop grieving over the daily trauma you experience because you are African American? Seeing black people randomly killed by police and it being ok with people? Would love to know what this special treatment is.

            Growing up, I was raised around African Americans. I hung out at parks with other races of kids as well. It was until I got to college and at every point after that I reminded of being African American by my white and white hispanic peers. People loved to tell me oh, thats racist. Its always been some kind of mockery or some sort of aggression …because of what I looked like.
            I was told once in an argument, “Im from the hood too”. See, so for me, the people who make race an issue, is often white people and those who associate with white. A running buddy made a joke about a link card on the ground and jokingly said, is that yours? I said well whites have more and he said that he knew, but thats not the stereotype.

            Now the intellectual white person or the white person who personally understands the history of Trauma that African Americans face, are the ones that are excluded when I say white people. Thankfully, in this day and age, people are not as limited to ignorance due to the more information being available. But my point is, more often than not, the whole race thing is pointed out by other races. Who then in turn, do not want to seem racist. Then are upset when African Americans talk about their daily trauma. Like, can I just live?? Literally and figuratively.

            OAN, that whole, owe you nothing comment just floors me. There seems to always be a tone of hate in that comment.

            Back to the point, people should not be allowed to discriminate. And when people say that not getting into college over an African American is a discrimination, I recognize they have little experience with what it is. Try experiencing it daily. Like a white person seeing you getting big eyes and crossing the street. Even though historically, white people murder more African Americans. Just for the heck of it too. Or being followed in a place where you come and spend your money. Even though we know all people do it. But Im dragging on now. So, yeah lol.

          • David

            I would like to see your stat about white people murdering blacks just for the heck of it. What I remember was the “knockout game” prevalent a couple years ago. Almost always black on white. Blacks per capita do commit far more violent crime than whites. I am pretty sure this includes murder. Do you dispute it?

            You can’t legislate how people feel. But most people want to be fair minded. I think the following statement is true: at any selective college, most of the black students would not have been admitted with the same qualifications (grade, test scores, extracurriculars etc.) if they had been white. And the white kids know it. But they can’t even say it, because if there’s any extended discussion and they say something too hurtful or maybe just the wrong way, they could get in trouble. Who wants people around that are demanding a conversation, where the conversation from their perspective is just a trap? And those people are not qualified by the same standards? Now maybe you understand why you aren’t liked by many whites.

            And the way to change it is to eliminate the easier admission hurdle and eliminate the ability of some blacks to run to the administration and get white kids in trouble for what they say. In other words, come in on equal footing, and you’ll be treated as a brother or sister by most whites — by all that I know. But not until then. Until then you are undesirable, and you can see why from their perspective. It’s just a human perspective.

            SBA loans have been available a lot longer than you say. Start your own business if not enough black business owners want to hire you — and hire other black people! (You’re allowed to do this, whites aren’t. And we’re aware of it. But nobody’s stopping you, please do it.

            To be honest, I had more respect for Malcolm X than MLK. King said a lot about living together, but it just doesn’t work, anywhere in the world. But I wish all people well, and blacks should have freedom for their own society.

            Why do I say I don’t owe you anything? Because I don’t. Well if I meet you I owe you courteous and fair treatment, and I deliver that. This discussion is more than I would be comfortable to do without anonymity — for my own protection. As I said, when a black person feels hurt, the white person can end up in trouble, such delicate snowflakes some black people can be, crybullies. It personally makes my life less pleasant, so it does affect me. Being on guard against this does create a distance, and you can’t legislate it away. All that can ever make it go away is being willing to have equal treatment with no special protections that others don’t also have. Like brothers and sisters. As it is now, we’re not and won’t be. As I say above I am not sure it can ever be, and maybe Malcolm X had the right idea.

          • Vee

            Hey David,
            Well when I say historically Im moreso thinking KKK lynchings and killings. Remember, black men especially go missing at rates or they are grusomely killed and there are no stats for it because no one cared until recently what happened to African Americans on a larger scale. Yes, the knock out you saw mostly African Americans and some white youth as well. But you also see what the media shows you the most of and like you said, who is keeping counts of how many whites are doing it.
            I agree, you cant legislate how people feel. I would like to believe people want to be fair minded but honestly, I have not experienced it all the time, some times for sure. I mean its why black kids are suspended and arrested at higher rates than black kids for doing the same things.
            It saddens me that you think that most black students would not have been admitted into college if they were white with the same qualifications. Its not like white kids are not getting into college at all, it was just that they didnt get into the college of their choice. Which happens. I think that they are looking for a reason to blame why they didnt get their way personally. And I think they can say it but the problem is they assume it. They say they know it and then turn around and get offended when African Americans say they know when someone is being racist against them. And why whites dont like some African Americans has alot more do to with self hate than them not feeling comfortable enough to say their opinion. It would be nice if they had some actual data as opposed to assuming and stating so as if it is fact.
            And to ask to be treated as equal but then dont treat African Americans as equal is something i think some white people dont get . They want to be comfortable talking about how racist Affirmative Action seems, but is not comfortable with being told their personal actions seem racist. Like not liking an African American because they possibly got in with Affirmative Action. See where I am going here? If white people were wiling to give the respect they want, then we would not be here. Im not sure if they dont like African Americans or just dont like them having a similar access to benefits as them.
            And yes, SBA loans are great, but you still need money some kind of equity to offer back. You need to prove you are worth it and have some kind of asset. This helps if you have generational wealth. Im not saying its not possible, but banks are still getting sued because some people felt a business should not have a loan because of its race. Its a sad reality. Luckily the younger American generation overall is changing that, so in the future, Affirmative Action is not needed. I could see if someone said, hey, we no longer need Affirmative Action because we no longer have the problems that led to this being put in place in the first place. But people are saying hey, this gives African Americans more of an opportunity than some whites. Even though that number is extremely low. Its not like 50% or even 14% of applicants are using Affirmative action. Then I would see the concern. But some places require small percentages of different races and thousands of people attend college. Like, really?

            And I agree, blacks should have freedom for their own society.. but not just as African Americans, but just Americans. How can someone said they see us as equal but many dont even see us or treat us as Americans with equal rights. All humans should have a right to their own society.
            And the whole owing thing, The thing is, African Americans are not saying white people owe us. We are saying America owes us at least fairness and the right to live without being wrongfully jailed for 10 years or killed by cops for being black. Why is that just so much to ask for. People are just totally ok with that. And then are mad about Affirmative Action.
            If more white people, gave courteous and fair treatment, we would not be in this situation.
            See thats the benefits right there. You say something that makes people feel uncomfortable is one thing, you saying something (generally You, not you specifically) that is just disrespectful is another. We say one thing Whites dont like, we lose jobs, we get killed, we go to jail. look at Sandra Bland. Seriously.
            Its all about respect. The same respect. Your fear is getting in trouble. Thats your biggest fear. Its not even being disrespectful to someone who deserves respect. Some of our people’s fear is what has been happening for years. More trauma. And then we are the crybulllies? White people say things that implicate hate and actually do hateful actions (Think Trump Rallies), then complain. Like, these are the people who are not willing to respect anyone other than people who hate like them. I just cannot understand how people do not see this.. Its very explicit. All in all, this has been a great convo.

          • Vee

            Also, as far as the blacks per capita, there are more homes and more money in most predominantly white areas, so thus more ppl per capita. For African Americans there are fewer people in the same square footage as another area with more people. That does affect the numbers.

          • David

            “Per capita” means per person, the root is the same as “capitation”. It isn’t the same thing as “capital” i.e. money. So if you have 100 green people and 500 purple people, and the green people commit 5 murders and the purple people commit 10 murders, there are more murders (10 vs. 5) by purple people, but more murders per capita (0.05 vs. 0.02) by green people.

          • Vee

            Got it, Ill have to research that to understand it more. I have read into it in the past but I could always learn more!

          • David

            My college admission statement had to do with selective colleges; reread it. At a place with open admission this issue does not exist in the same way, because it’s open admission. But reread my hypothesis. I think it’s true. Just look at median SAT scores of white students admitted to a given selective college, (use average score if median isn’t available) and compare with the distribution of SAT scores of black students admitted. By that test, very few of the black students will come above the white median. (The test is very rough in this form but maybe not too far off.) And that means most of those black students are “using” affirmative action, just by checking the racial box on the admission application.

            Trump says he’ll put more cops in black neighborhoods and make them safer. Is there another way to make them safer? Not that I know of. In south side Chicago it’s almost entirely blacks shooting other blacks. Nobody did this to them, collectively. They are doing it to each other, but “white America” should certainly help. He’ll also cut the flow of drugs. I think that will help a lot. BTW the number of blacks killed by cops is like 1% of the number of blacks killed by other blacks who are not cops — according to a stat I saw recently. The worst problem isn’t cops, but thugs, and a lot of those thugs esp. in black neighborhoods are black.

            The issue of respect probably goes way back to Reconstruction. According to an old movie I saw, some of the black carpetbaggers were pretty rough on the southerners, and those southerners (Democrat btw) formed the KKK as a self defense and retaliation method. There were lynchings. How many were as a result of a crime? I have no idea at all, but the bad feelings are fairly permanent. At some point we have to just figure some folks won’t get along and should be separated.

            Then SCOTUS comes in with “separate can’t be equal” which was just forcing endless conflict. If we make more things local, then we don’t have to worry so much about fair division of big-government resources. Don’t worry so much about redlining. Redlining had an economic basis. Make your own neighborhood great rather than demanding to live in ours. Take some farmland and make your own suburb if you want. Like Prince Georges County, Maryland. We’re not stopping you.

          • Vee

            So this is that different sides of the fence story. From your comments, I would gather that you have never lived on the southside of Chicago, I was raised there. So, its not quite as the media paints it. Not at all. I can almost guarantee someone benefits off of these same crime ridden story lines. All I could say is that you would have to live there to understand. And I agree, we should live in our own communities to build them up. I have seen first hand the positive impacts its having on areas including Englewood in Chicago. People have no idea because the news rarely shares those stories. We have to depend on the smaller media to share the great news. And if we are all human, then separate cant be equal. But I do agree, we as Americans need to do more things more local based. And I would love to own some farmland. I just need some more money. Its my goals to own some land, especially in the communities who could use some positive energy. A lot of white people are beginning to help and are not actively stopping people. There are still a lot that go out their way to do so. But I personally dont dislike any race of people. I know the racists to stay away from, because they could be KKK members and those hate filled people kill people. But other than that, I have met a diversity of people who are helpful to each other that I get along well with because they are good people. That is what this new generation is bringing about. And lets be honest, in 15+ years the dynamics of college is going to change I believe and the way the economy is how the system is built. I personally would prefer to attend an HBCU or a college that really invests in local communities and businesses.

          • David

            In 15 years the dynamics on college campuses will change a lot. We can’t afford to continue as we are, with so much spending, so much loan debt, so many useless degrees and jobless graduates. Trade schools will become destination to more kids, and things will be more hard-headed and practical even in academic fields, that’s my guess. I think this will feel like negative progress to some people, because it will be more like say 50 years ago, when colleges cost a lot less to run and produced a better result: graduates ended with a job rather than a huge debt they couldn’t pay.

            Maybe it’s very nice to live on southside of Chicago. I’ve driven through a few times and it looked OK. You took over a lot of great old architecture that was left to you by “white flight”. Is it your contention that that’s worth the probability of catching a bullet? If so, then someone responsible should step up and say so clearly, so the CPD, Trump etc. don’t have to worry and can leave you alone. Cutting the drug flow should calm things down a bit anyway.

            As you know, lots of white people have no money either. So even though it would take money to solve your problems, it would take money they don’t have to solve their problems also. We just all have to have jobs and some have to work harder.

          • Vee

            I agree on the whole thing about college debt, its stifling! Trade schools are a better investment these days for sure. I enjoy the Southside. I also have tons of family there. There are also white people that lives on the southside in the more poverty stricken areas. I think people are stepping up, there are sooo many great organizations doing that, it will just take time. And I respect the good cops, Ive personally been harassed by cops more times than I heard a gunshot to be honest with you. I know a lot of white people have no money either, but they have community and they have help with their drug problems. I read briefly over an article where I think the senate is allowing for 1 billion dollars to help people with drug problems and where if you possessed drugs just a few years ago, you go to jail. And if you go to jail, you get no job. And think of how many Veterans of any race this happens to. And if you are a homeless veteran, its even worst. And I think most Americans work hard, but the having a job thing is the problem. We dont have the same kinds of trades any longer because of technology and furthermore, companies are going overseas to spend less money on labor. The American dollar is just not what its used to be. On top of student loan debt. Im honestly more afraid of that than anything!

          • David

            Then I dunno. There seem to be like 5 people per day killed violently on south side Chicago, it’s some really bad number, granted the population there may be a million, but if that means 0.2% chance of being killed in a given year … well we’ll all die of something anyway. Gotta stop the drugs. The way to do that is to build the wall. I think Trump wants a weak dollar so we can sell things overseas, and a weak dollar is good if you owe a lot of dollars — your debt is smaller in real terms. But I am not sure he can get a weak dollar, because the markets love his presidency so much that everything US is getting bid up at the moment, including our currency.

            The war on drugs (started by Bill Clinton our “first black president” iirc) has a lot of problems. I didn’t agree with it when it started. Putting people in prison that could be outside is a bad thing. On the other hand drug addiction is harmful, so if the dealers are getting and keeping people hooked, that’s bad too. We just have to dry up the business, that’s the best solution.

            Not sure if we can do anything about existing loan debt. It should be dischargeable in bankruptcy, but if you made that change now, it would knock over some banks probably. And rates would go up if they can’t count on your being a slave to that debt. Trump’s education policy involves letting banks not just the government make lending decisions, based on individual students. So if it’s a good student in a field in demand, they’ll get a loan, and they’ll probably succeed in paying it back without too much trouble. A bad student in a worthless field won’t be offered a loan and will be thus forced to do something the market considers more reasonable for him or her.

          • Ben Dover

            I think a large part of the monetary strategy is to use whatever means to stop the currency manipulation by the Chicoms. He has already pushed the peso beyond its tipping point.

          • goldushapple

            You’re talking to a fool. She believes that Trump supporters preached hate and practiced that hate during Trump rallies. She believes the common narrative that Trump supporters are just bullies pushing around others who aren’t like them. Vee is a fool.

          • Vee

            I dont think America is out to get me. I never said. And I dont think that way about all of Trump supporters. And I havent really spoke about slavery. Out of all of the things I said, you summed it up and said slavery and etc. You do not need to speak for me. You can speak for yourself however.

          • Vee

            It all comes back to money. The day when you had to pay for basic quality education and get a debt loan, is the day America really started to fail its future students.

          • Vee

            And think about it, do you really think a wall will stop drug traffic use? I personally see that just increasing the value of drugs if that actually does affect how much of it we see. Someone is going to make a lot of money some where

          • goldushapple

            >Some of our people’s fear is what has been happening for years. More
            trauma. And then we are the crybulllies? White people say things that
            implicate hate and actually do hateful actions (Think Trump Rallies),
            then complain.

            Yes, you are the crybullies.

            You say that white people say and do hateful things at Trump Rallies. Utter. Baloney. If anything, it’s the opposite. Trump supporters were the ones attacked and spit on. You’re believing what you want to believe.

            The very fact you think that whites do hateful things at Trump rallies is absolute proof you’re just a sheep, thinking they’re the real bullies and your kind are the innocent victims. The last time I remembered a couple of blacks beat up a white man in Chicago for being a Trump supporter. All video taped and appeared on local news.

          • Vee

            Clearly.et you dont remember the white people pushing on a black lil gurl or punching a black dude at a Trump rally. Um. Ok. Or the muslim woman who was put out. Or the latinos. Now we know that not all white americans are this, but its was on live tv. But you know that. You can google it. I could post it. But for what? You are doing the whole name calling thing which leaves no room for an intelligent conversation. Watch Trump much?

    • goldushapple

      >Whats funny is that people dont seem to connect that Affirmative Action
      is a benefit to the tons of burden that African Americans face.

      Yet the African American community still suffers … From their own choices. Where’s Thomas Sowell? I want him to laugh at you.

      • Vee

        Oh lord. You want someone to laugh at me for my feelings? Really? Save the commenting for the adults.

        • goldushapple

          Okay, so that means you’re going to leave now?